I Read Games reviews are me reading games when I have nothing better to do, like read a module or write or play a game. I don’t seriously believe that I can judge a game without playing it, usually a lot, so I don’t take these very seriously. But I can talk about its choices and whether or not it gets me excited about bringing it to the table.
I’ve been thinking a lot about my own module writing, which I write for a genericised B/X. Allegedly, Shadowdark has a large audience. Should I write for it or something like it? I didn’t like Shadowdark very much when it came out and left it a fairly unforgiving review. I never brought Five Torches Deep to the table either, even though some tech in it stuck with me. I thought I’d come back to these two, revisiting them in the light of a different question: Is the load on the referee (if any) of the 5th Edition SRD, worth the trade off in making them more accessible to a broader audience? And if it is, should I be running Shadowdark, or Five Torches Deep? Or should SLIMDNGN, my own dungeon crawler, change directions and fork off the now Creative Commons 5th Edition SRD? Let’s compare these two dungeon crawlers, side to side. Five Torches Deep is by Ben and Jessica Dutter; Shadowdark is written, designed and laid out by Kelsey Dionne.

Off the top, Five Torches Deep avoids “dump stats” by assigning special uses to each of your ability scores (as well as modifiers being used as per 5th edition SRD), for example Strength being directly related to Load, Intelligence being related to Supply, Charisma being related to Retainers, etc. This is really elegant although try as they might, they can’t make everything equally important. Shadowdark is more traditional in that Charisma, for example, is pretty useless, but Constitution saves lives.
Both Five Torches Deep and Shadowdark give experience for gold recovered, although Shadowdark adds carousing to “convert” gold to XP, and in addition has a very different advancement table. I’ll put this in a table below, because Shadowdark deviates significantly here. In Shadowdark, a bag of gold is worth 1 XP, which is about 20 GP for early levels, but it changes as you level up, and so I’ll modify Shadowdark’s advancement in the table below to show roughly how much GP a PC has to gain. Note, however, that all PCs gain XP for all GP – it’s not divided by the party in Shadowdark, which means I could treat this as 1/4 the gold required to level up compared to Old School Essentials and Five Torches Deep. Basically, Five Torches Deep treats XP as roughly equivalent to Fighter advancement in B/X, just simplifying the numbers a little. In Shadowdark, you advance far quicker based on the gold you earn, and can earn XP theoretically for magical treasure and other achievements. If you’re running a B/X module in Shadowdark, you’re going to have to reduce the amount of treasure by about 10 fold, but luckily, that’s not too difficult because of that number: Simply turn all the gold to silver, and all the silver to copper. I don’t find Shadowdark’s carousing compelling, but I like carousing as a design choice, I’d just steal from Gearing’s for a more interesting table.
| OSE | 5TD | SD | SD (Modified) | |
| 2 | 2000 | 2500 | 10 | 200 |
| 3 | 4000 | 5000 | 20 | 400 |
| 4 | 8000 | 10000 | 30 | 600 |
| 5 | 16000 | 20000 | 40 | 2000 |
| 6 | 32000 | 30000 | 50 | 2500 |
| 7 | 64000 | 50000 | 60 | 3000 |
| 8 | 120000 | 75000 | 70 | 5600 |
| 9 | 240000 | 100000 | 80 | 64000 |
Both Five Torches Deep and Shadowdark have roll-to-cast spells with mishaps, taking clear inspiration from Dungeon Crawl Classics, although with less bespoke mishaps. I prefer Shadowdark’s more detailed mishaps, and but Five Torches Deep explicitly allows use of 5th edition spells, which really adds to character customisation options. Five Torches Deep also uses attunement, though, which I’m not a fan of at all, limiting the number of magic items you can wield, which is unneccesary in my opinion given the amount of things you already need to fit into your inventory. Overall here, Five Torches Deep is stronger, but barely, and with a little less flavour.
Five Torches Deep’s approach to both overland travel and rolling to return are elegant and lack an equivalent procedure in Shadowdark, as well as including foraging, crafting, and associated rules for equipment breakage and durability. Shadowdark doesn’t even try here, making a clear choice to focus on simplicity with regards to equipment and crafting, and to minimise wilderness rules to focus on the underworld: It’s right there in the name. But I’m not going to avoid non-dungeon environments when I play or when I write, so Five Torches Deep is stronger here.
I prefer Shadowdark’s infamous live timer for tracking consumables over traditional torch tracking, although I’d play in blitz mode to make it faster paced. Five Torches Deep is more traditional in its resource tracking, which in my experience is never effective. I really like Five Torches Deep’s use of supply to combat consumable loss, as it makes resource management more active and introduces a push-your-luck element. This one is a draw, and I’m certain there’s a middle ground to be found here.
Both Five Torches Deep and Shadowdark use encumbrance slots, although they don’t say that outright — I marginally prefer Five Torches Deep’s. They both use simplified armour — I marginally prefer Shadowdark’s. Both have fixed initiative – in Five Torches Deep, you don’t roll at all, and in Shadowdark, it’s rolled at the beginning of the session — I marginally prefer Five Torches Deep. Shadowdark alone out of the two pair has an equivalent to 5th edition’s inspiration — luck points — which honestly I don’t feel strongly about, but I know players love it and it will help with familiarity. Neither have saving throws; they go unmentioned in Shadowdark — another sign it’s not intended for use with unofficial products — and in Five Torches Deep it says to just use the closest check if one is called for. I prefer Five Torches Deep’s approach here, and honestly it’s a little better than 5th Editions approach.
One big strength of Shadowdark is that it’s full of lists, random tables, and generators. It comes with monsters and plenty of spells. This is all great, I guess, as it makes it feel a better product than Five Torches Deep, but the truth is what I really want is to be able to pick up any module and run it. Now, Dionne’s model is to sell modules – she’s a really stellar module writer, and has over a decade of experience writing for 5th edition. It looks to me there are already 3 zines full of modules written for Shadowdark, as well as a jam’s worth of modules on itch.io. But, it is notably absent from storefronts that aren’t Arcane Library and the jam isn’t official; Shadowdark doesn’t want me to run modules that aren’t from Arcane Library, it appears. That said, especially the trap and hazard generators here are great; add this to Knave on your list of unremarkable games with excellent tables. Shadowdark also often transplants DIY elfgame concepts directly across, for example reaction rolls are the 2d6 table you’ve seen a million times, which for me makes it feel strangely less true to its intent of a 5th edition dungeon crawler than Five Torches Deep, which relies more heavily on the d20. I prefer Five Torches Deep’s approach, but it’s an incredibly strange and unimportant preference to have.
A huge strength of Five Torches Deep is that it really lays its “monster math” (as it calls it) out clearly, which means we can look at how compatible they are with each other and with B/X (I’ve used Old School Essentials here as a proxy as it’s available online). Here I’ve taken a Hobgoblin from each game:
Hobgoblin
Five Torches Deep 4HD Soldier. To Hit +6, Damage 2d6+2, AC 14, HP 17, Strong: Str/Con +6, Morale +6, Disciplined, tough, brave, deadly. Weak: vs Magic +0, Stealth +0, needs a leader, slow). Techniques: +2 AC when in formation. Shove: Hit pushes PC back 10 feet.
Shadowdark AC 15 (Chainmail+Shield) HP 10, Atk 1 longsword +3 (1d8) or 1 longbow far +0 (1d8), MV near, S +3, D +0, C +1, I +2, W +1, Ch +1, AL C, LV 2. Phalanx. +1 to attacks and AC when in close range of an allied hobgoblin.
Old School Essentials AC 6 (13), HD 1+1 (5 HP), Atk 1 weapon (1d8), THAC0 18 (+1), MV 30′, ST D12, W12, P14, B15, S16 (1), Morale 8, AL C, XP 15, Number Appearing 1d6.
I chose Hobgoblin because I expected it to be a pretty uncontroversial but fascinatingly, you can see completely different perspectives on exactly what a Hobgoblin is. But if we account for the HD difference between the 3 Hobgoblins (we have 1 HD for OSE, Level 2 for Shadowdark, and 4 HD for Five Torches Deep), I think it’s roughly equivalent. HD still appears to be a 1d6 throughout, damage is equivalent, as is AC (the three just use different scales slightly, but it’s probability is roughly equivalent). If I were to pick a random stat block for OSE and convert it directly, simplifying a little because I rarely use the full stat block for OSE either:
Goblin
Old School Essentials: 1-1 HD (3HP), AC 13, Atk +0, 1 x Short Sword (1d6). -1 to hit in full daylight.
My Five Torches Deep: 1/2 HD Soldier. 2 HP, AC 13, To Hit +0, 1 x short sword (1d6), Weak vs Magic -2, Stealth -2. -1 to hit in full daylight.
My Shadowdark: HP 5, AC 13, 1 x short sword +0 (1d6), MV near. -1 to hit in full daylight.
Actual Shadowdark: HP 5, AC 11, 1 x club +0 (1d4), MV near. Can’t be surprised.
That’s pretty close. Overall, Five Torches Deep wins out here with its more detailed explanation of monster building and converting; but it’s also clumsier (if also more clear and interesting) than Shadowdark. It’s monsters (and PCs for that matter) are consistently lower in HP and hit harder, though. More importantly, though, you could play a B/X module without much noticeable problem in either, I suspect, even if they don’t sell it as such.
Now the questions I’m trying to answer by reviewing these are legion, so I’ll break them down.
Should I be writing for Five Torches Deep or Shadowdark? Shadowdark in particular appears to have a significant audience. But, you can see from this review, that while Shadowdark is a more complete product — especially when you count all the backmatter, spells, treasure and monster lists — I think Five Torches Deep does a better job of making elegant and minimalist decisions that maintain cohesiveness with 5th edition while staying true to dungeon crawling as broadly imagined. There’s not a clear answer to that question, but looking at Dionne’s approach to selling Shadowdark — it’s not on DriveThruRPG at all for example – I can’t see myself finding that audience easily unless I really engaged in the Shadowdark discord and community with all my heart.
Following on, would it be hard to write for Shadowdark or Five Torches Deep, actually? No, I don’t think so at all. I can reproduce a Shadowdark stat block really easily from a B/X one, because the math is very similar. Both Shadowdark and Five Torches Deep want complex stat blocks with a load of unique information, though, so it wouldn’t be easy to say “Compatible with B/X, Shadowdark and Five Torches Deep”, because I suspect a 5th edition derived audience would rail against the briefer stat blocks I prefer, where most DIY elf gamers are used to being just the basics. But it wouldn’t be hard at all to convert any module I wanted to run or had written to either of them.
How hard does the load come on the referee to make it feel more dungeon-crawly and to onboard from 5th edition? I don’t think there’s much of a load here, to be honest, except for the clash of expectations between a 5th edition audience and a DIY elfgame audience. While Shadowdark proudly proclaims that it doesn’t have any proficiencies, I think that’s one thing that the audience it’s drawing from will bounce off, for example; similarly with saving throws. But those barriers are present whether running Shadowdark or anything else; you definitely won’t have to explain what THAC0 means or why thief skills are percentile or x-in-6, as most things player-facing hews towards 5th edition.
I want to talk about one particular expansion to Five Torches Deep because I think it addresses one of my concerns with both Shadowdark and Five Torches Deep. In 5th edition, one of the strong appeals to the players of player characters in my opinion is the huge breadth of character options – 117 subclasses on a quick google, and while I can’t actually find a source for how many races there are, I’d guess at least 30 or so. In combination with backgrounds and alignment, this provides a strong menu of characters with depth and potential to grow for up to 20 levels. This, while it can be overwhelming, is also a huge selling point, because your character isn’t just defined in the moment of play, but your character’s story arc is somewhat defined as well. Five Torches Deep has 4 races, and 4 classes each with 3 subclasses (known as archetypes), but those archetypes only gain 2 special abilities of their potential lists. Shadowdark has 4 races and 4 classes with no subclasses, and the special talent is random, although you get more talents overall than you get in Five Torches Deep. Shadowdark features a little more flavourful depth, though — it has backgrounds, titles and there are deities to choose from. But still, these are very basic character options in comparison to 5th edition, and just won’t do it in my opinion for most people who enjoy the character menu of 5th edition.
I want to be clear about this: Most of the players of 5th edition I know like the menu aspect of the class lists and splatbooks, not the complexity. They aren’t min-maxing. They’re excited when they find out they can play a chaotic good summer exiled eladrin bladesinger. It’s what they want out of a game. But the flavour is more important to them than avoiding the complexity. It’s why so many people are more likely to try Pathfinder 2e before moving to other games. Shadowdark has nothing to offer players with these preferences. If you pay an additional $4.50, though, you can buy Five Torches Deep: Origins, which adds 8 more (now rebranded) ancestries, lifepaths which are more complex backgrounds, lineages which add more depth to your ancestries, and 3 new “race-as-classes” if you choose to go in that direction instead. I wouldn’t buy this, and I think that to be frank Five Torches Deep needs to be re-released with a lot of the supplements included as it’s quite anemic a product compared to Shadowdark, but it gets closer to satisfying the need for more character options that players of 5th edition need. If you’re willing to pony up that extra cash, Five Torches Deep wins out solidly in terms of character options, and I don’t think Shadowdark’s titles, backgrounds and deities are sufficient to make up the ground there.
You know what’s not clear after all of that, though? What I should be running, and what I should be writing for. In terms of running, I bounce solidly off aspects of both Five Torches Deep and Shadowdark, but none of the things I bounce off are actually related to their relationship with 5th edition at all. And I also bounce of most of the things I do run things in, like Cairn, Knave, Trophy Gold, and even my own games like SLIMDNGN (although chalk that up to playtesting). Because of that, my probable conclusion is that I should be running a 5th edition analog, even if I don’t like these two. In terms of what to write for, you really have to write specifically for Shadowdark or for Five Torches Deep, with the former requiring a lot of community engagement, and the latter appearing to lack an audience that would make it worthwhile switching. It turns out that it’s easier to convert to both from B/X than is immediately apparent, and I think they should both provide a guide to doing so, although I don’t favour my odds. Most importantly, though, while a lot of the adoptions from 5th edition will make onboarding 5th edition players to the systems smoother than to say OSE or Cairn, I still think both of these games miss what players of player characters love about 5th edition and why so many people who’re happy to run a game that isn’t 5th edition have trouble finding players, and that’s depth in character creation. Both of these games smooth everything out on the referee end — in different ways — but they do disservice to the players of the very audiences they’re looking to populate their tables with. Five Torches Deep does a better job through its expansions to satisfy this need, but not good enough at all in my opinion.
Overall, I think I like Five Torches Deep as a system more than Shadowdark, although Shadowdark is a better and more complete product. But they’re both flawed in what they’re trying to achieve. Closely reading the two of them together hasn’t persuaded me to play or write for either, to be honest, but what it has persuaded me that my aversion to a 5th edition derived DIY elfgame is an unfounded aversion, and that the benefits to a 5th edition derived DIY elfgame outweigh the negatives. But, if I were to look at another 5th edition derived DIY elfgame, I would hope they’d try to keep in mind the best parts of 5th edition’s player-facing game, and incorporate them as best they could, as both of these two games fail to do that, and in doing so become games designed for referees and not for players of player characters.
Anyway, if you’re reading this you’ve probably already bought Shadowdark, given its popularity. You may not have bought Five Torches Deep, and I’d check it out, if you’re interested in running DIY modules for 5th edition players. Five Torches Deep is solid, and it’s designed so you could port a lot of your (players) 5th edition favourites across to it. Shadowdark isn’t, so while it’s a flashier, more well-known game, it’s probably not quite as good a pitch.
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